The assumption that different countries do not have the same kinds of people as our own is so obviously wrong that it does not really need an old story to explain it. What is being shown here is that due to our youthful false assumptions, the doctrines of the leaders of these countries (including our own), can have a disastrous effect on what may be called world-opinion. So if hatred is to play a role here, it must be limited and directed to apply against those who are wrongly teaching and leading many of us to believe in something that is only true for a very small number of their false opinion-setters.
I believe that rather than hate them we should feel pity for them and better realise that they must have been brought up in so bad a manner, that this capacity to make war and kill many thousands or the opposing sides and hate others was caused by past suffering. It is not a true situation in the more human way of living and behavior. It implies that one side began this killing and hatred, but that in order to achieve safety the opposing sides are only able to manage their attitude of what to do, after it becomes very similar.
As the poet JOHN MILTON wrote in "Paradise Lost";
".......Oh shame to Man,
Devil with devil damned, Firm concord holds, men only disagree
On creatures rational, that live in hope, Of heavenly grace, and God proclaiming peace.
Yet live in hatred, enmity and strife Among themselves, and levy cruel wars,
Wasting the earth, each other to destroy. As if, (which might induce us to accord),
Man hath not hellish foes enou' besides Who day and night for his destruction wait."
David - thank you for this deeply considered and articulate comment. I believe you live in Israel. What are your views of what is happening in Gaza, might you care to share them?
Hi Alanna, In answer to your question about Gaza, like most things here it is more a muddle rather than a middle east matter. The Gazans always were a rebellious lot and I suspect that was why the Egyptians were not so upset when they allowed Israel to take it over after they made peace with Israel. However, when Gaza was allowed to govern itself after Erik Sharon thought it would be a good thing for them, Hamas became their governors instead, which did nobody any good. On Oct 7th the Hamas terrorists were assisted by many civilian Gazans too, so frankly I do not feel much sympathy for them. Their cooperation with Hamas in places including what previously was furious tunnelling, does also not exactly endear them to me, although they have suffered greatly due to the war which is still going on.
Of course we do not have any exact measure of the numbers killed. Israel rightly returned the fighting with the policy of avoiding the killing of these civilians. This should be compared to the proportions of civilians to enemy forces killed in the last two US wars in Afghanistan and Vietnam, which was probably about 4 or more civilians to one enemy soldier. War is hell! Our record was much better than this but this still means that many families were lost and this includes the children over which a lot of exaggerated propaganda has recently been made. That is also a part of it and adds to the muddle, so it is difficult to know very exactly what the numbers are. Who can expect to fight a war without many awful civilian and child casualties?
It should be noted that Hamas declare only Gazan casualties, and none of their own fighting terrorists being killed, which adds to the amount of confusion here. There must be a lot of bribery of fighting men and conversion from being a paid terrorist to becoming a civilian again. The money would then be used by that man's family for purchasing the stolen food that Hamas still withholds. So I reckon that a fair proportion of Gazans are not doing so poorly as we have been led to believe.
It would seem from more recent news that this IDF policy of reduced proportions of civilians casualties is no longer being followed. But I reckon it is not generally true that we have forgotten it, although there have been a few sad exceptions and bad mistakes. Not every Israeli soldier feels that way. My two teen-aged half-cousins (by marriage) who died in a shocking fire in Kenya during a terrorist attack on their hotel, resulted in their younger sister swearing vengeance, when she became of age for national military service. I have no knowledge if she ever got that satisfaction, but now she is happily married with a child, so love presumably has conquered hatred, in this case at least.
When I think of the scale of suffering between the Sudan warring tribes and their half-formed countries and the enormous degrees (10 million or more) of those stricken by poverty, famine, drought, disease, and bloodshed there, compared to what is a relatively small sized business here in Gaza, I find this world to be completely crazy in how little attention it gives to what really should count! To a degree I cannot take it all so seriously; perhaps mankind was always intended to be successful in reducing its numbers to an unhappy few whose living conditions are comfortable, and the rest deliberately allowed to struggle and suffer for every crust of bread and cup of water?
We should take into account that some Gazans have fled to Jordan or Syria and the poorer ones are who remain there. The land there is particularly fertile and when they were at peace there was sufficient food being grown, without needing the existing current deliveries. More than half of these supplies were captured by Hama and then returned to the more wealthy Gazans, whose payments provide for sufficient funds for weapons to be profitably smuggled in from Jordan and Egypt. The IDF have made no effort to control the way this food distribution was being made, (presumably for certain political reasons, which is a whole additional can of worms) and even now there must still be much confusion and deal-making between civilians and would be terrorists, whilst someone is making a handsome financial gain from it. As they say, "its an ill wind that doesn't blow someone some good"!
For many years and even today there have been many sick and injured children being brought to israel for good medical treatment and recovery, which does not get much publicity. The numbers are of course quite small, compared with those who cannot manage this. Although this clearly demonstrates that Israel actually does seek peace with Gaza and the so called Palestinians (which is another sad story), there must be generated a great deal of fierce hatred between Gaza and Israel, from which both sides will suffer for generations yet to come. Time and patience are all we can hope to cure these ills.
The war in Lebanon was brilliantly performed by ourselves, but there are doubts that it will continue to rage after the 60 day cease-fire has passed. It could grind on for much longer and will possibly require a lot more violence when this treaty has passed. Hopefully Syria is now being better governed and if Turkey and Russia don't interfere there are good chances for that place to become peaceful and stable country, under a moderate kind of leadership.
There are so many questions yet unanswered and considering how complicated are our own politics and religious movements for and against a number of likely policies, its a wonder that in itself Israel can manage to be united in what its fragile minority has achieved. A great many of us wish for Netanyahu to resign, but when I look at the likely alternatives, I have great respect for the very difficult job that he has successfully held for many years. And this includes several bad mistakes too. In my opinion his Likud part will continue grudgingly to support him, but for how long before we again reach a stage of doubt and more danger?
Should you wish to share this opinionated news with others please do so. I have no problems in providing my side of the picture to anybody else.
Thank you David. So to be clear, you consider what is happening in Gaza to be Israeli self-defense and not genocide of the Palestinians? And another question. It seems to many that Israel's leaders have a vision and intention for Greater Israel which means a considerable expansion of the territory of Israel. Do you think this is true or not?
Thanks for your comment Alanna. Of course I do not believe that Israel is planning to kill all the surrounding Arabs. Having suffered from the Nazis on a huge scale, such inhuman behavior during WW2 , we Jews (and certain others too) have certainly learned how much evil exists when any kind of Fascist leader is allowed to take over the normally peaceful lives of his/her fellow countrymen/women. Israel seeks peace not war, but it surely deserves the right to defend itself, when attacked, which is what happened several times since the State of Israel was established. Do not believe the propaganda which tries to prove the opposite, some of which even denies the Holocaust!
It would not be natural if here our democracy did not include a relatively few extremists, who might claim to take the opportunity of these wars, to expand on the existing borders of Israel. Indeed, when you consider the history of this region there are many doubts and serious arguments as to exactly where these borders should be located. After all, from Biblical times the ancient Hebrews from Abraham's family were granted and promised by God (actually 7 times if you study it deeply), all of the Land of Canaan (which again introduces doubts as to its exact boundaries too, but is certainly greater in size that what Israel has today).
So to answer your question, I believe it to be true that there are many religious idealists who are not satisfied with the present size of our country and wish to expand it. But you may note, that most of these idealists have done their best to avoid military service, which is obligatory here for young men and women! This implies that there is a big difference between wishes and the practical expression of land grabbing. The resulting mix-up is where we are today. We need to be strong and of good faith!
Yes soldiers are people; and they are mostly pro-egalitarian people like civilians are. But they are people under (typically) enormous discipline such that if they disobey orders they may be shot for treason or imprisoned, etc. It is because they are people, however, that egalitarian revolution is possible despite the soldiers being ordered to prevent it with violence, as I discuss at https://www.pdrboston.org/how-we-can-remove-the-rich-from-power .
Not sure why you posted this or how it connects to what I wrote but here is the comment I left: Ugly hard rock demonic depraved the West at its worst. Freedom of expression? What to grind down human consciousness into the pits? Bring back the Beatles and higher consciousness inspiring culture.
We live in a traumatized society and the societal / individual / ancestral trauma goes back a very long time. Much healing is needed. Please talk about the pathways to healing and to a better world, I know enough about the dark side already.
The assumption that different countries do not have the same kinds of people as our own is so obviously wrong that it does not really need an old story to explain it. What is being shown here is that due to our youthful false assumptions, the doctrines of the leaders of these countries (including our own), can have a disastrous effect on what may be called world-opinion. So if hatred is to play a role here, it must be limited and directed to apply against those who are wrongly teaching and leading many of us to believe in something that is only true for a very small number of their false opinion-setters.
I believe that rather than hate them we should feel pity for them and better realise that they must have been brought up in so bad a manner, that this capacity to make war and kill many thousands or the opposing sides and hate others was caused by past suffering. It is not a true situation in the more human way of living and behavior. It implies that one side began this killing and hatred, but that in order to achieve safety the opposing sides are only able to manage their attitude of what to do, after it becomes very similar.
As the poet JOHN MILTON wrote in "Paradise Lost";
".......Oh shame to Man,
Devil with devil damned, Firm concord holds, men only disagree
On creatures rational, that live in hope, Of heavenly grace, and God proclaiming peace.
Yet live in hatred, enmity and strife Among themselves, and levy cruel wars,
Wasting the earth, each other to destroy. As if, (which might induce us to accord),
Man hath not hellish foes enou' besides Who day and night for his destruction wait."
David - thank you for this deeply considered and articulate comment. I believe you live in Israel. What are your views of what is happening in Gaza, might you care to share them?
Hi Alanna, In answer to your question about Gaza, like most things here it is more a muddle rather than a middle east matter. The Gazans always were a rebellious lot and I suspect that was why the Egyptians were not so upset when they allowed Israel to take it over after they made peace with Israel. However, when Gaza was allowed to govern itself after Erik Sharon thought it would be a good thing for them, Hamas became their governors instead, which did nobody any good. On Oct 7th the Hamas terrorists were assisted by many civilian Gazans too, so frankly I do not feel much sympathy for them. Their cooperation with Hamas in places including what previously was furious tunnelling, does also not exactly endear them to me, although they have suffered greatly due to the war which is still going on.
Of course we do not have any exact measure of the numbers killed. Israel rightly returned the fighting with the policy of avoiding the killing of these civilians. This should be compared to the proportions of civilians to enemy forces killed in the last two US wars in Afghanistan and Vietnam, which was probably about 4 or more civilians to one enemy soldier. War is hell! Our record was much better than this but this still means that many families were lost and this includes the children over which a lot of exaggerated propaganda has recently been made. That is also a part of it and adds to the muddle, so it is difficult to know very exactly what the numbers are. Who can expect to fight a war without many awful civilian and child casualties?
It should be noted that Hamas declare only Gazan casualties, and none of their own fighting terrorists being killed, which adds to the amount of confusion here. There must be a lot of bribery of fighting men and conversion from being a paid terrorist to becoming a civilian again. The money would then be used by that man's family for purchasing the stolen food that Hamas still withholds. So I reckon that a fair proportion of Gazans are not doing so poorly as we have been led to believe.
It would seem from more recent news that this IDF policy of reduced proportions of civilians casualties is no longer being followed. But I reckon it is not generally true that we have forgotten it, although there have been a few sad exceptions and bad mistakes. Not every Israeli soldier feels that way. My two teen-aged half-cousins (by marriage) who died in a shocking fire in Kenya during a terrorist attack on their hotel, resulted in their younger sister swearing vengeance, when she became of age for national military service. I have no knowledge if she ever got that satisfaction, but now she is happily married with a child, so love presumably has conquered hatred, in this case at least.
When I think of the scale of suffering between the Sudan warring tribes and their half-formed countries and the enormous degrees (10 million or more) of those stricken by poverty, famine, drought, disease, and bloodshed there, compared to what is a relatively small sized business here in Gaza, I find this world to be completely crazy in how little attention it gives to what really should count! To a degree I cannot take it all so seriously; perhaps mankind was always intended to be successful in reducing its numbers to an unhappy few whose living conditions are comfortable, and the rest deliberately allowed to struggle and suffer for every crust of bread and cup of water?
We should take into account that some Gazans have fled to Jordan or Syria and the poorer ones are who remain there. The land there is particularly fertile and when they were at peace there was sufficient food being grown, without needing the existing current deliveries. More than half of these supplies were captured by Hama and then returned to the more wealthy Gazans, whose payments provide for sufficient funds for weapons to be profitably smuggled in from Jordan and Egypt. The IDF have made no effort to control the way this food distribution was being made, (presumably for certain political reasons, which is a whole additional can of worms) and even now there must still be much confusion and deal-making between civilians and would be terrorists, whilst someone is making a handsome financial gain from it. As they say, "its an ill wind that doesn't blow someone some good"!
For many years and even today there have been many sick and injured children being brought to israel for good medical treatment and recovery, which does not get much publicity. The numbers are of course quite small, compared with those who cannot manage this. Although this clearly demonstrates that Israel actually does seek peace with Gaza and the so called Palestinians (which is another sad story), there must be generated a great deal of fierce hatred between Gaza and Israel, from which both sides will suffer for generations yet to come. Time and patience are all we can hope to cure these ills.
The war in Lebanon was brilliantly performed by ourselves, but there are doubts that it will continue to rage after the 60 day cease-fire has passed. It could grind on for much longer and will possibly require a lot more violence when this treaty has passed. Hopefully Syria is now being better governed and if Turkey and Russia don't interfere there are good chances for that place to become peaceful and stable country, under a moderate kind of leadership.
There are so many questions yet unanswered and considering how complicated are our own politics and religious movements for and against a number of likely policies, its a wonder that in itself Israel can manage to be united in what its fragile minority has achieved. A great many of us wish for Netanyahu to resign, but when I look at the likely alternatives, I have great respect for the very difficult job that he has successfully held for many years. And this includes several bad mistakes too. In my opinion his Likud part will continue grudgingly to support him, but for how long before we again reach a stage of doubt and more danger?
Should you wish to share this opinionated news with others please do so. I have no problems in providing my side of the picture to anybody else.
Thank you David. So to be clear, you consider what is happening in Gaza to be Israeli self-defense and not genocide of the Palestinians? And another question. It seems to many that Israel's leaders have a vision and intention for Greater Israel which means a considerable expansion of the territory of Israel. Do you think this is true or not?
Thanks for your comment Alanna. Of course I do not believe that Israel is planning to kill all the surrounding Arabs. Having suffered from the Nazis on a huge scale, such inhuman behavior during WW2 , we Jews (and certain others too) have certainly learned how much evil exists when any kind of Fascist leader is allowed to take over the normally peaceful lives of his/her fellow countrymen/women. Israel seeks peace not war, but it surely deserves the right to defend itself, when attacked, which is what happened several times since the State of Israel was established. Do not believe the propaganda which tries to prove the opposite, some of which even denies the Holocaust!
It would not be natural if here our democracy did not include a relatively few extremists, who might claim to take the opportunity of these wars, to expand on the existing borders of Israel. Indeed, when you consider the history of this region there are many doubts and serious arguments as to exactly where these borders should be located. After all, from Biblical times the ancient Hebrews from Abraham's family were granted and promised by God (actually 7 times if you study it deeply), all of the Land of Canaan (which again introduces doubts as to its exact boundaries too, but is certainly greater in size that what Israel has today).
So to answer your question, I believe it to be true that there are many religious idealists who are not satisfied with the present size of our country and wish to expand it. But you may note, that most of these idealists have done their best to avoid military service, which is obligatory here for young men and women! This implies that there is a big difference between wishes and the practical expression of land grabbing. The resulting mix-up is where we are today. We need to be strong and of good faith!
Alanna, In the SAME theme, here is the movie from my dear friend film maker Regis Tremblay, now in Crimea for 5 years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owjNUdc7vZc "Who are these Russians and why do we hate them?" Jon
Attachments area
Preview YouTube video Who are These Russians and Why Do We Hate Them? with Regis Tremblay
Thanks Jon just watched it. Regis is wonderful. I had not known he was a priest for many years.
Yes soldiers are people; and they are mostly pro-egalitarian people like civilians are. But they are people under (typically) enormous discipline such that if they disobey orders they may be shot for treason or imprisoned, etc. It is because they are people, however, that egalitarian revolution is possible despite the soldiers being ordered to prevent it with violence, as I discuss at https://www.pdrboston.org/how-we-can-remove-the-rich-from-power .
https://youtu.be/GFb40tewv94?si=VTvjgZx0dUw81UHC
https://youtu.be/88e0T87GcMA?si=7nOgac38sQhOauk_
Love it, Alanna! Hope Scott Ritter can see this, he'd love it too! <3
Th great Russian librarian who was a mentor in the 1870s to the young Tsiolkovsky of eventual
space flight fame had major insight in his vision of "the common task)
David London
Not sure why you posted this or how it connects to what I wrote but here is the comment I left: Ugly hard rock demonic depraved the West at its worst. Freedom of expression? What to grind down human consciousness into the pits? Bring back the Beatles and higher consciousness inspiring culture.
I assumed you were being sarcastic
You know nothing
I was there you were not so is very fkn funny . I have seen a lot of great concerts
You make me laugh. I’m 67
I can discuss how deviant the Beatles were. I was just chatting with Sean Ono Lennon on X las week before the locked me out
We live in a traumatized society and the societal / individual / ancestral trauma goes back a very long time. Much healing is needed. Please talk about the pathways to healing and to a better world, I know enough about the dark side already.
So my trauma is for you to wipe your ass with?